Feminism & sex

[sarahmichigan]

I do consider myself a feminist, and I have a lot of the same beliefs and the average "feminist on the street" as well as agreeing with much of the cultural analysis in academic/intellectual feminism. However, one area that I rarely ever agree with other feminists on is the area of sexuality, especially the public depiction of sexuality, from porn to stripping to prostitution, to how sexuality is used in advertising. Any topic on which the Christian Right and radical feminists agree, such as "porn is bad and degrading to women" is one which I tend to find myself clashing with other feminists.

It just seems to me that there can be no depiction of sexuality involving women, either in words, pictures, or video, that some feminists won't have a problem with. There's buzz-words like "objectification" and "the male gaze" and on and on. It can never be as simple as, "People like sex and are curious about depictions of sexuality." If you take this kind of criticism to an extreme, it seems like certain feminists are saying that sexuality and sexual desire are not appropriate topics for movies/photos/stories, or that there's no way to show women's sexuality in certain media that isn't degrading or demeaning to the women that do it.

With the Christian Right, there's this sense of paternalism and condescension, that women need to be saved from themselves, even if they don't feel degraded or demeaned by the sex work they do or the sexuality they are portraying.

Feminist theory uses different terminology, but there often feels like there's an ugly subtext that any woman who feels empowered by doing any kind of sex work is deluded, naive, or not very evolved. There's also the subtext that women who do sex work or who feel empowered by expressing their sexuality are somehow abetting the patriarchy or are letting the whole of the Sisterhood down. I also find myself offended by some of the assumptions about what men think and want as portrayed in many feminist critiques of sex work and sexual imagery.

I feel like I have more to say about this, and more examples and specifics I could detail, but I think I need to let this percolate a bit longer...

Comments

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that's the intended direction of most contemporary feminist critique of porn and porn-like objects. The objection isn't to the sexualization of the body as product entirely, but to the massively disproportionate representation of women's bodies in this way & the assumption that it's women's bodies that are consumable.

You may find individual people who feel otherwise about sexuality (particularly the vibe that sexual expressiveness in all forms is wrong and degrading to its object), and I wouldn't want to gloss over their perfectly valid opinions that I happen to disagree with, but I don't think that's a majority opinion.

[munin218.livejournal.com]

Personally, I could give a crap about porn. I feel strongly on a lot of women's issues, but porn is porn.

[flyinglemurs.livejournal.com]

I think I'm pretty similar to you on all this.
With the addition that yeah I would like to see more men-as-sex-objects in the media too, not just women.

Incidently I have a friend that stripped for a while, and she loved it. She doesn't have much shyness about such things, and found it a really fun and easy way to make some money and I think rather liked the attention. And oh yeah she's an honors grad student, one of the smartest people I know. She started off doing it as "research" for a paper or some such.

[telegramsam70.livejournal.com]

sometimes - well - most of the time - i love your posts.

if it is ever possible, you should engage my lover, synapsomatic on her views of feminism. she's got some pretty convincing arguments towards the current/recent nonsense masquading as "feminism" and I would go so far as to take it to the point that modern feminist view should be scrapped and re-invented all fresh-like.

[styggie.livejournal.com]

What i have never understood about the anti-sexuality feminists is this. On what delusional planet do they live on that they believe women do not watch and enjoy porn? Or have sex? Or heven forbid, enjoy having sex!!! I have yet to hear a sound arguement from the antiporns that supports the fact that being openly confident and comfortable with your sexuality to be making porn as being degrading.

And i am sorry but stripping is a damn good low level entry profession. Most girls strip becausetehey have it, and they like the money - and it is good money. WAY better than giving blow jobs for crack in a parkinglot. I have a great deal of respect for strippers, and if i had the body and the strength in my thigh muscles heh i would definately concider it. And if anything stripping is objectifying men, because they quite litterally buy into a fantasy that they know will not be fufilled.

Sex and sexual desires will always exist. No antiporn feminist or christian group is going to end that which is human nature.
And the fact of the matter is, we all prostitute ourselves. Laying a person after they take you out ofor dinner is food for sex. Because they brought you a ring, jewelery for sex. Because they let you cry on thier shoulder, emotional support for sex. The only people not prosituting themselves are those people that randomly have sex with strangers, but anti-porn femisitis probably have a problem with that too. Oh well, if they want to bitch at something, they may as well bitch at that, because it willnever make a difference and it is easy enough to tune them out.

[stacycat69.livejournal.com]

I agree with the first paragraph. It seems paternalistic to say that women cannot own their own sexual desires, that they should be "told" that their feelings are bad.

I dislike saying that I am a feminist, I prefer the term egalitarian. when I do say feminist, its "sex positive feminist." I enjoy sex in all its myriad of forms and expressions, and as long as it is between consensual adults, I dont care what they do. (I also think teenagers should be more free to explore their sexual desires, but in age appropriate ways.)

That said, there are women being exploited in sexual industries. But, I dont see how a stripper making an honest wage is more exploited than an administrative assistant or a mcdonalds worker.

Plus, porn, online or video, has a very low entry cost, it is an area in which women can make good money without exploiting their workers :-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_earthshine_/]

(First: Thank you all for good comments so far. I didn't want to flood the post with direct replies to each, tho i was tempted!)

There are a few angles to this issue, and i think people mix them up.

First off, i think the core issue of feminism is insuring that women are equally empowered. In this context, this means enjoying their sex when they want to, and not being sexual when they don't want to. As others said, i think propagating the idea that women can be sexual, and enjoy it is empowering -- so long as it's made clear that these on done on their terms, not as some subservient role to men (well, unless it's willfully-granted subservience... but you know what i mean). If anything, i think to help established balanced empowerment in our society women need to be more sexualized -- but as the "do-er", so to speak, not the "done-to". Porn is no exception, and people forget that there can be very good porn and very bad porn -- a female character who aggressively decides to go out and seek pleasure via some sort of maniacal sexual spree is very much empowered, while another who clearly looks like a made-up desperate drug addict barely propped into place as a prop is not (and, IMHO, also grosses me out).

Second, there's the issue of objectification. This is a tricky one, because it's hard to draw clear lines as to what is a neutral portrayal of a person, what is fair artistic license for aethetics' sake, and what is having a harmful social effect. I honestly think the only key here is awareness. For example, i once heard a slightly more militant feminist friend tell another friend that he was "part of the problem" because he found unshaved legs unattractive on a woman. Discussion ensued, and what we really concluded was that my friend has every right to his opinion and tastes, regardless of how influenced they may have been by society, and that he's not a bad person for having them. However, he should be aware that propagating his opinion in certain contexts could be reinforcing stereotypes and/or disempowering ideas that just so happen to be prevalant in our society. It's a compassion thing, really, and i think it's the only sensible solution i've seen. Note, too, that the more "voice" you have, the more "aware" you need to be about your work -- if you're an advertising exec or famous musical artist, you need to know that your work/art will reach millions, and you need to be aware of what effect that may have -- and that makes it also a responsibility thing.

The last thing i'll mention is that i have a semi-humorous (but also semi-serious) philosophy about the purity of the female form vs. that of the male form. The short version is that i believe there may be some real basis for a disbalance in the aesthetic (and related sexual) appreciation of women over men, but that it can be thought of in a healthy context. This concept, true or not, is clearly something that some women might resent, and rightly so: because any inherent value that they have merely by being women could potentially mask or understate the far more important traits of who they are as a person. Again, i think the key here is awareness. On men's part, that awareness is to insure that any such "innate female value" is put in proper context (and in some cases, this may mean ignoring it) and treated with respect. On women's part, that awareness may simply be acceptance of the possibility, and not resenting that value but celebrating it as a positive thing, something that is a "bonus" on top of the far more important value that they have as individuals.

(I hope that last one comes across okay -- it's difficult to articulate, esp in short form. Clarifications upon request, of course.)


Also of note is my "amen" to stacycat69's comment: we all degrade ourselves in many ways. It's a regrettable consequence of the immaturity of our civilization. There are definitely ways in which it happens more often to women than men, and vice versa, and it's right that we analyze them, but it is not the methods themselves that create the degradation -- in each case it has to do with who's in charge of their actions and why.

Thanks again, all.

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

I think something similar to you about why women's bodies are more often the object of sexual or sensual appreciation; I think part of it probably stems from being close to the mother's body as an infant, whether breast-fed or not.

The feminist point that women's bodies, more than men, are commodified, and thus sex work is bad and degrading, bothers me, though, still. I understand that the personal is political, and yet I don't think individuals should have to pay for societal problems, necessarily, and shouldn't be made to feel bad about a preference they have just because it re-inforces some kind of societal ill.

Take for instance the problem that some in the African-American community have with white women "taking their men." Does that mean if I fall in love with a black man, I shouldn't pursue it, even if we're extremely compatible as a couple, just because I'm re-inforcing a racial stereotype and 'taking a good black man' away from the pool of single black women?

I think it's the same here. Just because there is some exploitative sexual movies and photos out there, and just because we, as a society, disproportionately objectify women's bodies, should I feel guilty for enjoying depictions of women's sexuality and naked bodies? That feels wrong to me.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_earthshine_/]

I'm with you across the board here. I think the best we can do is try to be conscious of how our actions affect others, but also encourage others to do the same, and to encourage all to recognize the differences between the issues here. Our tastes and feelings and inclinations along these lines are not evil, nor are the businesses or relationships that result, in an of themselves. We just need to be aware of what's out there so we can encourage healthy thinking about it.

Take for instance the problem that some in the African-American community have with white women "taking their men."

Just out of curiosity, is there some semi-legitimate political argument in here somewhere? In this particular example, it seems like just good old fashioned racism... and it doesn't even sound like the "stereotype" that's being claimed is rooted in anything that makes sense, matematically.

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, is there some semi-legitimate political argument in here somewhere?

Well, if you think of it in terms of preserving culture, rather than as a racial issue, it kinda-sort makes sense. Sort of like the argument some would make about making an effort to place black babies in black homes. I can see the logic in both positions, sort of, though I'm not sure I buy them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_earthshine_/]

Yeah... I'm afraid I find that kind of weak. If a person chooses to prioritize that, that's great. I'm totally cool with people saying they'd like to make a home/family with someone of their culture. To admonish others for not doing it... not so much my bag. And then to admonish the people outside the culture for participating in it (i.e., the white women, instead of the black men, in this case), that's just way out there, imho. That'd be like me yelling at non-Italian guys for hooking up with all the Italian women because it dilutes our culture; if i have any case to make (and i'm not saying i do), it's to Italians to encourage the preservation of that culture, not to badmouth outsiders for going along with it. I see the "logic", but it doesn't seem to be a proper focus on the issue.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard about that one.