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1. When and how did the emphasis in this country shift from valuing Freedom to valuing blind patriotism and a clinging to an illusion of security?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -Ben Franklin
2. I recently read a quote in an essay talking about how you don't have to be religious or attend church to be a good person. "It's our actions that show exactly how moral and responsible we are." I wonder how many people believe that? I'm a firm believer in the idea that "actions speak louder than words." I don't care what you profess to believe or hold as an ideal; I care about the message your behavior sends. But not everyone thinks that way.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -Ben Franklin
2. I recently read a quote in an essay talking about how you don't have to be religious or attend church to be a good person. "It's our actions that show exactly how moral and responsible we are." I wonder how many people believe that? I'm a firm believer in the idea that "actions speak louder than words." I don't care what you profess to believe or hold as an ideal; I care about the message your behavior sends. But not everyone thinks that way.
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Date: 2005-10-09 01:46 pm (UTC)2. I mostly believe that, but many (most?) Christian denominations specifically deny that what you do is more important than what you believe.
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Date: 2005-10-09 02:18 pm (UTC)2. Disagree strongly. Name me one that teaches that as part of its dogma.
I don't believe in blind patriotism, Sarah, as you've probably guessed. I believe in the fundamentals this country was based on. Liberty, justice, minimal government, free speech, free exchange of ideas, and more. I also believe that it is a much simpler path to be blindly patriotic than to question what you are being told, and question what you observe for yourself, which explains much of what I think you are observing. People have become too complacent.
As for attending church or being religious being definitive of being a good person, not true. I know many people who would not fall into these categories, but who are admirable role models nonetheless. People who follow the teachings of Christ know that you can't just talk the talk. According to Roman Catholic dogma, we have to live our faith. Attending Mass is not sufficient. But I will allow
Finally, I will posit this supposition for your consideration. We do have a morality problem in this country, and it takes this form: too many people are ready, willing, and able to excercise their rights, but not assume their responsbilities. These responsibilities extend to their familial, personal, work, and community relationships.
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Date: 2005-10-09 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-09 02:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-09 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-09 04:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-09 04:59 pm (UTC)Is that just a personal belief? It's Southern Baptist doctrine, but I was under the impression that the other conservative protestant denominations (CoC, Pentacostal, Missionary, etc. (whatever happened to the Puritans??)) didn't share it.
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Date: 2005-10-10 08:11 am (UTC)I find it difficult to believe that a supreme being can't see when he/she is being played for a fool.
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Date: 2005-10-09 03:57 pm (UTC)Or the confessional denominations, that say as long as you have Jesus in your heart, he takes all your sins away, so just be Reborn right before you die, and God will forgive you.
I have no problem with true christians that live their faiths. I have a Huge issue with hypocrites that try to use their religion to show how they are better than me.
I fully agree with your last statement. A big problem with this country is that no one will accept responsibility for their own actions. See New Orleans for a good example.
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Date: 2005-10-09 05:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-09 07:23 pm (UTC)I agree whole-heartedly on the issue of hyprocrites. Unfortunately, these people show who they are in many ways. The more subtle ones who are less than obvious in what they are saying can do the most damage.
As for NO, that will be a mess for years to come. Sad thing is, I doubt anyone will learn the lessons from it.
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Date: 2005-10-10 08:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 10:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 07:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-11 10:31 am (UTC)But Sarah's original question wasn't one of salvation, was it? Wasn't the issue a question of practicing what one preaches?
To my thinking, if you espouse it, you ought to be willing to practice it, otherwise you risk being a hypocrite.
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Date: 2005-10-11 11:08 am (UTC)however, this tangential thread about faith vs. works in American religious traditions might shed some light on why some others don't share my belief that actions are more important than words/beliefs.
Still pondering. I had no idea this post would generate this much discussion, but it's been fun!
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Date: 2005-10-11 11:50 am (UTC)I can't imagine someone NOT subscribing to the idea that actions are more important than words and beliefs.
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Date: 2005-10-10 08:36 am (UTC)say(s), "Yeah, true faith is the only thing that gets you in my door, but true faith's side effect is that it drives the believer to perform acts of good. Not only can I see into your mind and see whether your faith is real or not, but even if I couldn't read your mind lack of true faith manifests itself in lack of good acts."?
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Date: 2005-10-10 08:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 08:57 am (UTC)It's kinda insidious actually, the way they have an explanation for everything. But a whole bunch of people have put a whole bunch of thought over a whole bunch of time into Christian theology. We shouldn't really be surprised that it seems that they have an answer for everything.
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Date: 2005-10-09 02:15 pm (UTC)2. Ive had so many arguments about morality lately. Some christians believe that they are more moral than I am, based soley on religious belief. My ethics are not given to be from a diety, they are my personal choices that I live with, and I am perfectly happy with them. :-) But, my ethical choices are what I do in my actions, not just what I think and say.
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Date: 2005-10-09 06:32 pm (UTC)Wasn't it Churchill that said (and I may have this wrong).."If you give up a little freedom for a little security, chances are you will wind up with neither". Yepppppers.
2. Well I am totally on the page of you can be a good person with or without religion.
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Date: 2005-10-09 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 07:42 am (UTC)I, too, am amazed at how many folks lazily figure that a mere facade of ethics or morality is good enough for themselves or others. I'm sorry to say there are even some in my extended family. Specifically, these family members wouldn't miss a meeting of church, yet their treatment of even their own blood kin is, shall we say, in direct contradiction to the WWJD bracelets hypocritically displayed on their wrists. I'm a firm believer that one is justified by one's actions, not merely by one's words or memberships. Fortunately, though not everyone thinks this way, many do. I'm glad you spoke up about that.
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Date: 2005-10-10 07:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-10 10:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-11 10:42 am (UTC)What's interesting is that smear campaigns have been around as long as either the Declaration or the Constitution. The Federalist Papers are one of the few remaining examples of how vociferous the debate was over the adoption of the Constitution. The difference we have today is that it is so simple to capture the audio and video of current events, and we get inundated with these sounds and images, that it feels like the rancor is greater than it was 200+ years ago. In fact, it wasn't. There just isn't much of a record left to us of those times.
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Date: 2005-10-13 07:02 am (UTC)That Ben Franklin quote is one of my favorites. It really shows that the US is becoming pretty much the opposite of what the founders intended.
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Date: 2005-10-13 07:11 am (UTC)